tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post4855490684416337308..comments2015-07-05T12:02:36.788-07:00Comments on Nate O.'s Brew Log: Candi syrup secrets, and how to make your ownNateohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-35410811272672966282015-03-26T11:37:51.130-07:002015-03-26T11:37:51.130-07:00Hi Elijah, have you tried the DAP and gelatin comb...Hi Elijah, have you tried the DAP and gelatin combination yet?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02195666848005635343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-25970176966210662422014-12-10T19:53:04.236-08:002014-12-10T19:53:04.236-08:00Hi Nate, Thanks for doing all this work. I have a ...Hi Nate, Thanks for doing all this work. I have a ton of info on the production of candi syrup in Belgium. In Belgium, they can use HCL and they do. They also use NAOH. Candi syrup is a blend with about 4% being caramelized syrup and the rest invert. I totally agree with you about the US producer and their secret process. The Belgian producers maintain the highest quality food certification possible. The US producer has nothing. That really worries me. I hope I am helping. - BrianAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04957188704116881663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-1800935068132359332014-07-28T21:05:53.387-07:002014-07-28T21:05:53.387-07:00Just tried 50/50 sucrose and lme. Stuff starts put...Just tried 50/50 sucrose and lme. Stuff starts putting acrid notes/smoke off at 270F (where I stopped), and remains incredibly frothy throughout the process, I presume from protein content. Flavor isn't horrid, tastes much like chocolate malt, coffee notes, maaaaybe dark fruit/cherry. Nothing like the sucrose DAP with all its wonderful vanilla almond notes. Very dark though. Before it started getting too dark, it smelled a little meaty/savory. re-adding water leaves a protein foam on top, like wort. Next experiment will be all sucrose with DAP and Gelatin as an amino source.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15668105109542280956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-29137199626246174102014-03-06T11:24:45.427-08:002014-03-06T11:24:45.427-08:00Nate, the recipe you posted here, is this the best...Nate, the recipe you posted here, is this the best out of 100 attempts? What flavour difference will there be between NaHCO3 and KHCO3? The KHCO3 is very difficult to get here in The Netherlands, while NaHCO3 is more common.SiriShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02945447093030316611noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-23631799147967673532014-02-11T22:54:45.304-08:002014-02-11T22:54:45.304-08:00Matthew - I'd caution against using epsom salt...Matthew - I'd caution against using epsom salts. Magnesium tastes pretty bad. You'd probably have better luck baking baking soda for an hour or so. That's an old pretzel-makers trick: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/dining/15curious.html?_r=0<br /><br />Mike - It's hard to say, but it's really hard to guess the beer's flavor from the syrup's flavor. I've had some good-tasting syrups makes blah beer, and some bad-tasting syrups make good beer. Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-9028586148924742332014-02-11T21:37:16.337-08:002014-02-11T21:37:16.337-08:00Nate, I've been using your Candi Syrup recipe ...Nate, I've been using your Candi Syrup recipe for some time now. But my batch in the keg, I burnt the syrup. I still used it, and I *hope* it will mellow in a few months. Am I wasting my time, or will it come good? Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15359395426497931906noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-78250873244270020442013-11-18T11:17:21.262-08:002013-11-18T11:17:21.262-08:00I am in Canada where food-grade slaked lime (ie. p...I am in Canada where food-grade slaked lime (ie. pickling lime) is hard to come by due to some home picklers adding too much to a batch of pickings, over adjusting the pickle brine ph from acidic to neutral, and giving themselves a nasty case of botchalism.<br /><br />Has anybody tried this with epsom salts (ie. magnesium sulfate) in place of the lime to raise the alkalinity of the sugar solution??? Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05539176313605368959noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-43052767227825230992013-03-13T11:21:42.835-07:002013-03-13T11:21:42.835-07:00Has anyone tried just sucrose, a bit of acid, and ...Has anyone tried just sucrose, a bit of acid, and date sugar yet? I have used sucrose + DAP a few times with great results but I would like to try sucrose and date sugar next but will have to come up with some proportions to start with.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02195666848005635343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-88017084011994251502012-12-20T17:57:40.761-08:002012-12-20T17:57:40.761-08:00Richard - I'll check out maple syrup. I've...Richard - I'll check out maple syrup. I've tried using various isolated amino acids (for body building) but the flavors aren't right. I did make one syrup that tasted exactly like almond extract that way. I'd have to check my notes to remember which amino acid it was. Date sugar is usually just pulverized dates, so I'll check that out. I've used date sugar before, but only on a couple batches.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-30343700042027600882012-12-20T17:29:44.464-08:002012-12-20T17:29:44.464-08:00Look-up how maple syrup is made. There are amino ...Look-up how maple syrup is made. There are amino acids in the maple sap when it is harvested from the tree. When the sap is boiled it not only concentrates the sugars, but the amino acids create maillard reactions which give the syrup its color and flavor. Three are probably some amino acids that you can purchase that is derived from natural sources. Dates, are actually a good source of amino acids. I thought about grinding up some body building tablets to see if that works. Must not contain milk or meat amini acids or flavor will be off.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03675997575332540739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-37699735543635611072012-02-09T08:50:58.473-08:002012-02-09T08:50:58.473-08:00Cool, thanks JC for the link. Glad to see others w...Cool, thanks JC for the link. Glad to see others working on this!Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-32428125629898179982012-02-09T08:30:01.262-08:002012-02-09T08:30:01.262-08:00Nateo, check this out...I think Ryan has done the ...Nateo, check this out...I think Ryan has done the experiments that speak to the increased pH. Now, it just seems we need to figure out viable amino acid source beyond DAP/yeast nutrient.<br /><br />http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.htmlJC Tetreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12719857026935630639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-53352809216213630902011-09-02T06:00:32.778-07:002011-09-02T06:00:32.778-07:00might? you're doing it...might? you're doing it...JC Tetreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12719857026935630639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-50614980752470135302011-09-01T08:39:19.464-07:002011-09-01T08:39:19.464-07:00If I get really, really bored this winter, I might...If I get really, really bored this winter, I might try buying a bunch of beets and making my own sugar from scratch.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-29552796465252174022011-09-01T08:38:36.672-07:002011-09-01T08:38:36.672-07:00The Euro process for sugar beet refining is called...The Euro process for sugar beet refining is called "carbonatation." There are a few methods, but all involve increasing the alkalinity of the raw beet slurry coming in to precipitate and break down proteins. So I do believe that the imported stuff truly is "a byproduct of sugar beet refining." The beets provide the protein, and the carbonatation method provides the alkalinity. If you're starting with the refined product, you'd have to work backwards, and provide your own alkalinity protein.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-85516576535879967662011-09-01T06:09:02.865-07:002011-09-01T06:09:02.865-07:00Of course...we need to send a mole in to their ope...Of course...we need to send a mole in to their operation, find out what 'ingredients' they are ordering! <br /><br />Agreed re: 'only sugar + heat + time' ...its just not possible. keep plugging away...I'll do the same.<br /><br />cheers, JCJC Tetreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12719857026935630639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-65706888140580595562011-08-31T06:45:13.744-07:002011-08-31T06:45:13.744-07:00The Candisyrup guy told me they have a new patente...The Candisyrup guy told me they have a new patented process to make their "authentic" syrup, but they also have a secret process, and they only use pure beet and date sugar. It's all marketing BS. <br /><br />If it's a patent, it's not a secret, and he wouldn't give me the patent number. He also wouldn't say anything about the process or ingredients, which is why I started looking into labeling rules regarding process aids, and industrial caramel manufacture techniques. <br /><br />The laws of chemistry tell me it's impossible that they're telling the truth.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-31038913992003597362011-08-31T05:49:21.404-07:002011-08-31T05:49:21.404-07:00I'll let you know when I find time to take ano...I'll let you know when I find time to take another stab at it...have you tried contacting dark candi or the new company to see if they'll divulge anything?<br /><br />my guess is that they really would not be interested in discussing any trade secrets.<br /><br />http://www.candisyrup.com/index.htmlJC Tetreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12719857026935630639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-67735347395999453442011-08-29T11:53:41.986-07:002011-08-29T11:53:41.986-07:00I've never checked the pH of the plain syrup. ...I've never checked the pH of the plain syrup. I don't want to get my meter all gunked up. I've only measured it diluted. <br /><br />I agree with not wanting to use stronger bases. I don't think it's really necessary, but it would probably work a little bit better. Some of the minerally flavors you can pick up in the syrup don't carry over to the finished beer, so using the KHCO3 or picking lime isn't a problem, in practice.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-47573762493422494562011-08-28T07:17:54.097-07:002011-08-28T07:17:54.097-07:00huh, the pH on the spec sheet for D2 is 4.5-5.5.
...huh, the pH on the spec sheet for D2 is 4.5-5.5. <br /><br />so maybe at the flavor thresholds, the stronger bases are really the way to go...but my limits for experimentation are reached when I start considering options the janatorial supplier and soapmaking shelves!JC Tetreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12719857026935630639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-88802932263327288502011-08-26T09:00:42.744-07:002011-08-26T09:00:42.744-07:00The pH for the D2 is pretty high. I measure the sy...The pH for the D2 is pretty high. I measure the syrups at the same dilution I use to measure points per pound per gallon. The syrup I made is 4.3, D2 is 6.3, and the D-180 syrup from that new company is 5.3. A lot of the bright/acrid flavors in your syrup will be mellowed by base addition. <br /><br />If I had access to a really strong base that would be ideal, some like potash or lye. The strongest base I've used has been slaked lime, which works reasonably well, flavor-wise, but I got a pretty good chemical burn from that, so wear gloves and goggles if you go that route. <br /><br />Just like roasted grains become more acidic the darker the roast, the same will be true for your syrup. The darkness of the commercial syrups tells me either a)they're adding some amount of caramel colouring, or b) they're adding a lot of base to get the pH that high. <br /><br />The problem with the potassium bicarbonate is that in large amounts you'll get a kind of minerally/chalky flavor. I tried calcium bicarbonate first, and the taste threshold was really low. Potassium bicarbonate is more flavor neutral, but it works best as a buffer to keep the pH from dropping too low, not to raise the pH one it's already too low. For that, the lime works better. <br /><br />And, if you want to try something really crazy, just use any protein source you can think of as a nitrogen source for the syrup. If you make cheese at all, when your "break" the milk with acid, you'll get curds and whey. The whey is full of protein and lactose, and some lipids. You can get some interesting flavors that way.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-42183818415900161912011-08-26T07:53:33.216-07:002011-08-26T07:53:33.216-07:00very interesting...I'd be interested to see at...very interesting...I'd be interested to see attenuation data for just the syrup isolated. have you done taste comparison + pH check for syrups +/- of the potassium bicarb? i've noticed a slight 'metallic' or bright flavor to mine that is not in the D2, which seems much 'simpler' but also smoother, softer. I haven't yet tried adding Kbicarb to mine yet...JC Tetreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12719857026935630639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-10857527504978915742011-08-26T06:15:28.903-07:002011-08-26T06:15:28.903-07:00Also, depending on the makeup of your water, you m...Also, depending on the makeup of your water, you may need to play around with the amount of acid and base necessary to get the pH where you want. My water is high in bicarbonates (400ppm or so) so with softer water you will probably need less acid and more base. I recently found pure citric acid in the canning section of the grocery store, so in the future I'll be using that instead of lemon juice.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-44427417845023188262011-08-26T06:12:59.894-07:002011-08-26T06:12:59.894-07:00I've done a little bit of testing. Once I get ...I've done a little bit of testing. Once I get a recipe nailed down exactly how I want it to taste, I'll do more complete trials. In a 2L trial, 60% DME and 40% syrup, my syrup in the recipe here got down to 1.011, while the D2 got down to 1.007. In a full batch of beer, where D2 got down to 1.010, my syrup got down to 1.012, accounting for as many variables as I could. The interesting thing was that the D2 beer actually tasted thicker and slicker, even though it had a lower FG. Mine tasted drier and more complex, despite the higher FG. The results were encouraging enough to keep at it.Nateohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14428471228818070571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6565499382828183902.post-47074520570275711912011-08-26T05:54:32.261-07:002011-08-26T05:54:32.261-07:00have you done any fermentability tests on these?have you done any fermentability tests on these?JC Tetreaulthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12719857026935630639noreply@blogger.com